June 2009: Newman producesa written confession of his crimes. Add to that they tend to believe the molester (when caught) and how sorry they are. Donald Trump. Not those who are actual victims from church cover up. Also,there seems to be an established Christian promotional/marketing thing that that pushes all these groups and ideas, so if one had a contrary message, not sure how they would get it heard. They specialize in educating churches about abuse. Contract worker, volunteer or direct hire: Makes no difference. Isnt that the truth. Now I find out its not so, evidently just some provincial little place that merits only an obscure, inside reference on the Simpsons. Both the secular camps I worked at had protocols in place. hey, Im just bettern you to be such a Big Man and admit it with tears in my eyes while the music just started getting softly played by the song leader, that music likes they play in the movies where someone dies tragically. Babylon-5. As I would discover, he was only interested in boys and only my daughters spent time at the camp. Here is another example: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/09/01/widespread-abuse-uncovered-during-investigation-into-rhode-island-boarding-school.html. I dont doubt that male headship, submission of women, the buddy system and looking the other way are all products of some greater issue, and that there is a darker side to that issue than has been explored. I think the last year he was in ministry was working for Wade. Almost as much as creating your own stained glass memorial and putting it on display while you are still in power. Top/down authoritarian polity churches dont fire their leaders. He was merely a volunteer from the seminary. Please pray for this because there are some really good job openings which I think would work great with my sons schedule and pay a really decent wage. Our SBC church (the men, actually, because they are the only ones allowed to speak) was up in arms over that. And so he's like, how big is your circus tent? (KY3) - A former Kanakuk Kamps counselor already convicted of sexually abusing young boys has been hit with another judgment in civil court, a case leading to $29.6 million for victims. :o). But fixing the heart? He tells us that he confronted Pete Newman directly and afterward had a series of disturbing conversations with Joe White. At least thats how it feels. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you are like whitewashed tombs that look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead mens bones and all kinds of filth.. Spending money on a report is one way to stay in business. We should never forget that we live in the middle of a spiritual war where there are no cease fires. And if something goes wronglike the statute of limitations runs out and theres no way to extend it in some way, shape or formthen the law firm eats the cost of the case. Those allegations included incidents with Newman that were reportedly flagged for Kanakuk leaders in 1999, 2000, 2001, 2003 and 2006, civil lawsuit court documents show. The BransonTri-Lake News had this to say. We went together, stayed in the cabin together. This just breaks my heart. Yes, we can all fall into sin, we can all be deceived by sin. Ill tell you what. STONE THE WITCH! Joe and his camp, Kanakuk, have been sued by Multiple former campers claiming that he and the camp knew that former employee Pete Newman was abusing children on camp grounds from 1999-2009. That makes me wonder if he started a lot of what is wrong with our SBC churches today. Countless excommunications, shunnings, firings. Half of his childhood was stolen from him and from us. I have heard that Dolly Parton has a show/theater there, too. Reach News-Leader reporter Gregory Holman by emailing gholman@gannett.com. The problem is not that no one is immune (although certainly none of us are perfect). Its a tough gig for lawyers trying to represent victims of clergy sexual abuse. The abuse itself began in a relatively "minimal" way, Dygert said. Huh? The important thing is to establish a political climate of opinion which will make it politically profitable for the wrong people to do the right thing. "All I know is, he said, 'Don't worry about it. I guess it comes down to, what did Bryan Loritts know and when did he know it? I remember the day that I received notification from Kanakuk that my children had attended the camp when PeterNewman was a counselor. Unfortunately, it seems to indicate that Fellowship Memphis does not take either child sex abuse or voyeurism seriously. The idea being that if you have confessed your sins and repented and asked God for forgiveness then you are forgiven by God. In court documents filed in February 2013, Kanakuk says it will present testimony from expert witnesses that will cast doubt on the severity of the harm John Doe suffered as a 12-year-old sexual abuse victim. They honestly believe the leaders have the answers. But I dont know that this movement appeals to as many people as they seem to think it will. What a beautiful description. Branson is a popular vacation site. Downtown Presbyterian, too, and many many more. "We took off," Hoffpauir said, referencing himself and his wife, Madison. Dygert said he met Newman in a Branson public school lunchroom. Well, there is something to that, but no emphasis was placed on training the conscienceonly on understanding doctrine and memorizing bible verses. The first time former Kanakuk camp director Pete Newman was reported for being nude with kids was in 1999 the same year he became a full-time employee at the Branson-based Christian athletic . They are not fundamentalists. If I were in Texas, I would want to know what churches have paid for him to train or speak. I would think some of these firms are seeing some these churches/para churches have very Deep Pockets. They fool everyone. My point about this is that even licensed CPAs have gotten in trouble for fudging things for clients and it came down to the $$$. Velour UNITED STATES on Fri Sep 02, 2016 at 12:33 AM said: I will keep vigil tonight for the success of the surgery for Former CLCer . The News-Leaderleft three detailed voicemails on the phone line linked to Staples' Branson-area counseling practice. They arent consistent enough to be fundamentalists. @ okrapod: We also have this notion that bad people will look bad, kind of like in Disney shows where the good are beautiful and the bad are ugly. Bernie Madoff was described as very warm and charming. Bless them, they pray for domestic violence victims in sunday church on a regular basis. (Not sure of his position, but I think it involved church music.) I think so. @ Lydia: There is a barbarian aspect to this. REFUGEE, Most who take them on are paid to file or hoping for a keep quiet settlement of sorts to pay for their time. Many of Sammys victims only knew Sammy through the LifeWay CentriFUGE camps. Is there something to this as a part of the problem? A few heads roll but the culture is still there. Im just going to post it again for new readers affected by this story. He also went onfather-son retreats with Newman. Not in recent Disney shows like Frozen and Zootopia; even Disney is moving away from that trope. Milton Friedman talked about how you have to make it profitable for people to do the right thing, I think punitive is just the opposite of that, you make it costly to do the wrong thing. Thats why the lawsuits were filed. Branson is a popular vacation site. Eh, yes and no. . mirele wrote: For years I tried to forget about it, stuffed it away in the depths of my mind only sharing it with my wife and counselor. Katie, also an Auburn graduate, has been working with Kanakuk since 2003. Brians comment up thread and the various responses to it have greatly reinforced the old adage of the wolf in sheeps clothing. The most ruinous con men are the most ingratiating, an unfriendly swindler wont get very far. While his family's home is locatedless than a mile from Kanakuk, he and his siblings never attended. These are two entirely different things. Peter Newman and Camp Kanakuk . Reading through the articles posted at Eagles blog, it sounds like she wanted women Elders and her Gospel Coalition (because of course) pastor was all NOPE. But it is extremely disturbing to see SO many churches that are either clueless, negligent, or just plain dont care about these issues. And this inappropriate behavior didnt raise any red flags for them? @ Lydia: Finally one judge gets it. See, I never heard this dont trust your conscience thing until I started researching here. It is nothing new, it has been around since the early days of the first church. Instead, he feels called to raise awareness of sexual abuse in the church and help equip it. By my reading, the Pharisees were several notches better than these thugs. Boys club. Opening up and letting the truth in might knock them off their perceived center. I was unaware of the crime that Fellowship Memphis then subsequently committed to keep this predator in ministry. Christian parents should not have to worry about sending their kids to camp or church, but with youth workers like this on the prowl, you better think twice these days and vet ministry staff yourself. Kanakuks opposition statement also states that the plaintiff alleges Kanakuk and those two officers, White and Cooper, failed to safeguard him, however, there is nothing in these allegations that should subject White or Cooper to personal, individual liability. Peter Newman was hired by Fellowship Memphis. Far too many choose the second way. A prosecutor told the News-Leader at the time that Newman admitted to sexual activity with as many as 13 other minors. I had a very hard time believing any of it. In 2003, defendants White and Kanakuk had actual knowledge that defendant Newman continued to engage in activities with children at Kanakuk camps that involved defendant Newman and the children becoming naked together., Why wouldKanakukgiveNewman a promotion and allow him to have access to boy kampersif they knew about his activities? Add to that they tend to believe the molester (when caught) and how sorry they are. and double down. He ends up protecting a non profit institution that he thinks is automatically the body of Christ yet has no problem suing JWs .and did I understand the Catholic Church? They are perfect victims. If it werent so ludicrous it would almost be funny. I dont know. X-rated church! I just am not sure it trickles down to the members. Adding, "I have never seen consecutive life sentences in all my years of practice. It probably wont happen here. Our informant, having heard about the Newman situation,questionedBryan Lorittsabout Peter Newman'sposition at the church. He is serving a 10-year sentence at a Jefferson City prison facility, Missouri Department of Corrections records show.). Just PR spinning about something doesnt make it so. What does that mean in plain English, please? Its taken us time to process it and Im sure it will take us much more time to work through it. I found out a year or two ago that my best friend from my childhood was sexually abused by our pastor. It probably has to do with disagreeing on experience like the article said. Well, there is something to that, but no emphasis was placed on training the conscienceonly on understanding doctrine and memorizing bible verses. When I received the phone call in 09 from a mutual friend about what Pete had done, I was in total shock. What to know about Kanakuk Kamps, Pete Newman and why sex abuse victims are speaking out. (I suppose it is a bit hard to work that into all the hats & horns). Much needed. And he spoke two nights, and I was his minor, little-kid helper. Our local news this week reported on a Baptist church music minister sentenced to 30 years in Federal prison for sexual exploitation of minors, including child pornography. Do you think this one is simple good ole boy network/nepotism? Newman had other suggestions that same night, Dygert said: Dunking a basketball naked from a gymnastics board, for example. In all my years as a baptist I never, that would be never, heard any emphasis on conscience per se-other than what was taught me at home that one cannot trust the conscience since it was in a fallen state. Criminal behavior to knowingly bring a man charged with paedophilia anywhere NEAR children . Kamp Kanakukalsohad anotherpedophile incident which you can read about here:Former Kanakuk Counselor Lee Bradberry Sentenced To Ten Years For Sex Crimes Involving Young Boys. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEhSk71gUCQ. You were never taught soul competency which would necessitate those things? This is worth fighting for. Thank you, to you and Christianne, for taking the time to explain. Maybe the best thing to do is to train church MEMBERS what to look for and to constantly be vigilant, because the leaders are just not going to do it if it goes against their interests. As soon as Kanakuk became aware of abuse, we took action, including immediate termination and reporting of this individual. :o) and it is much cheaper than paying out zillions in lawsuit. Beyond lawsuits, those people need to be charged with criminal negligence and the institutions need to be fined heavily, at the very least, no excuses! Its such a relief to be out of that scene. And I do wonder how many of these people call themselves pro-life. Theres a difference between being anti-abortion and pro-life: you have to actually care for and about those who have been born *in addition to* those who havent. Trust your kids to these godly idiots? Drove out the Communists and got the Taliban. He had to practice church discipline on a 35 year member Dr. Nan Hawkes and drive her from the congregation. Pete began working at Kanakuk in 1995 as a counselor and then became a part of the K-Kountry leadership team in 1998. Thou hast the words of eternal life, and they cannot go far wrong. "Dorking around" was how he referred to this kind of activity,Dygert and Hoffpauir said. (I have repented!) Id just point out that Jesus wasnt very reverent in the holy temple. The real problem is people want to be led instead of self govern. Ugh, I have seen this ruin a person. Protecting the kids from sexual abuse should be pretty basic, both from a Christian standpoint and from a business standpoint. Yes!! ", "She, it's horrible," he told the News-Leader. :o) seriously! Most of their employees are members, leaders, sometimes pastors at local churches. When I received the phone call in 09 from a mutual friend about what Pete had done, I was in total shock. I dont have time to watch this video to make sure its exactly what I was remembering (although I think hes said similar things in other contexts), but its labeled Milton Friedman: Make Politically Profitable For Wrong People To Do Right Thing. The mega churches I was familiar with kept the big powerful law firm in town on retainer. but counseling can be paid for, and other help provided for victims. According toFinally, Kanakuk Kamp sex scandal may receive national attention: Kanakuk promoted Newman as a "camp director, devoted husband, loving, beloved friend and mentor to youth" long after being made aware of sexual misconduct allegations. I mean, really, how dare they? ", He added, "One of our main goals is to get the word out there to help find someone who might be listening, so that they can start the healing journey and get the help and support that they need. That testimony is expected to include the suggestion that John has "false or distorted recollections" of his encounters with Newman as a result of "external suggestion. The connection is so deep, and that loyalty is so strong, that you'll essentially kind of do whatever to keep that relationship. I just saw an interesting video demonstrating this. The difference is there is licensing involved and CPAs risk losing their license to practice. The first civil lawsuits against Kanakuk and former Kanakuk Kamps Director Pete Newman alleging sexual abuse are filed on behalf of a Jane Doe and John Doe in Texas federal court. beyond irresponsible into criminal. Why isnt this the case where such things have been found to go on so long with so many in positions of leadership knowing? And didnt your last article explain that Bryan Loritts himself was found out to be a voyeur in the womens bathroom? We must honor them with listening. Both men said the Frenches' reporting gave them a sense of validation, even as it "rocked the boat a lot," in Dygert's words: They learned they weren't alone. @ Lea: Listen to the promptings. Most of these cases are taken on a contingency fee basis. And maybe he felt that spilling the beans on the dark side of the Resurgence would help the SBC and the whole Church. The Dygertssettled. My understanding is that the general target of the Resurgence was to get rid of liberal excesses that had arisen, especially within seminaries. I can respect that. The victims need justice. Its time the Church understands the truth of this and deals with such leaders AS THUGS. That is soooooo Christ-like. Not so in this world. The difference is there is licensing involved and CPAs risk losing their license to practice. Under the circumstances, all things considered, HEADLESS, the evidence points in that direction yes. What was ever wrong with trusting in Jesus Christ ? How does anyone overlook this? Sorry about that, friend. '", Newman's logic reflects sexual best practices suggested by Kanakuk's owner, Joe White, as White explicitly outlined in the first edition of his teen manual for "sex, love and dating," titled "Pure Excitement. . Actually, it would be better if churches used a secular training program for abuse training. Maybe if members ever get properly serious about this they can clean house or leave. Life is a minefield. Newmanwas discoveredto beexhibiting sexually inappropriate behaviorin 1999. What I came to see (up close and personal) is that they have convinced themselves (due to their success in their little kingdoms) that their ministry/message is blessed by God and nothing can be allowed to stain that. When it comes to actors and other onstage entertainers, I cut them a lot of slack when it comes to plastic surgery. He was desensitizing the children to sexually abuse them and violating all kinds of boundaries to achieve that. Righteous Mass Movements can do without a God, but HAVE to have a Devil. I luv ice cream, but we dont need camo anything at Camp Backbone. If it werent so ludicrous it would almost be funny. They obviously do not care what it says nor do they think they will ever suffer these consequences. @ Headless Unicorn Guy: The baptist church of my earliest years had a quote from the bible carved over the doors between the vestibule/narthex and the church/nave. If I followed what you said, I would have to pack up my signs and sit on my hands 15 miles away instead of warning people (in my quite imperfect way). That means the church had legal access to the business bank accounts. It was a power play, which posed as getting rid of those %%%%% liberals. What is the Christian formation for the development of moral conscience within the neo-Cal theology??? Be still and know that I am God? So did the Apostle Paul. Ive read so many cases in the news now, Id be paranoid to take my kids to church or have them involved in any Christian stuff. I think a big part of it is actually doctrinal in some ways. I keep wondering if the leadership in such cases may be pedophiliac themselves but dont dare act it out, so they get their rocks off by listening to the JUICY testimonies of those who DO. When I received the phone call in 09 from a mutual friend about what Pete had done, I was in total shock. The bigger, more scary, question is why people in the pews go along with that thinking. Its not love; not when its MANdated by misogynists, no. Velour I have no doubt that many of the children of this movement will rebel and go far away from it, and cause it to completely disintegrate in the future. @ BeenThereDoneThat: He saw Newman as a "very popular guy," well-liked, a "powerful, motivated, enthusiastic speaker," a "superstar.". It is horrible to hear detailed child grooming and molestation stories.but we must. So did the Apostle Paul. Because we have Jobs and Lives and have to pause sometime; the fanboy doesnt. Its much easier to see this for what it is once you have known someone like this, once youve seen behind the mask. IT is truly mind boggling. I do think you are drawing the wrong conclusion here. Of course there are some similarities and some overlap on some issues. Theyre spending ($4,800) a month to bring their kid, and some of these parents have two, three or four kids that are going through Kanakuk every summer, and so theres so much money that goes through the camp that ends up going to Branson and Taney County.. No wonder he got so angry. Gateway considered Sammy a pastor and even flew him out regularly for staff chapel and pastors meetings. Is there a shortage of lawyers who will sue on behalf of victims? Any victim can reach out to Kanakuk by emailing us at victimsupport@kanakuk.com or access several independent victim advocacy organizations such as ChildHelp.org or Rainn.org, which can provide access to local support services, reporting assistance, and educational resources. Christians many times do not guard against this and even cover it up! I wish I could have left the room. Also, I work in health care, and there is a concept of investigating things with a mindset of fixing rather than punitive. Both of those things can be effective and I am fond of anything that is affective. 1 priority. The missionaries were victims of the culling of diversity within the SBC, which apparently was seen as intolerable to the new leadership. But we cannot all become pedophiles. I saw an old proverb: I would rather file down the claws of a tiger than teach a sheep to attack. Sorry but no one will truly ever know the impact of abuse on a child until its theirs and the parents live with watching their baby fall apart over it. Is this the only Christian camp in Branson? It is too hard, period. Charles L. Bailey Jr., In the Shadow of the Cross link. Where Easy Prey gathers, the Predators will swarm. Learning the truth was earth-shattering for us. This is exactly what we were taught. Stan wrote: I have had a calling towards Student Ministry for many years and volunteered alongside Pete at the local Methodist Church. Are people being instructed to rely solely on leadership for ALL moral direction and not to run it through their own consciences where they can consider their own personal situations in real time, and pray for guidance??? The Simpsons was right! JMJ at Christian Monist used to relate that when he was growing up in rural Tennessee, it was an open secret that one of the pastors or elders at his church was an actively-molesting pedophile. I do get the importance of the front end prevention, I really do. Sandy Willson of Memphis Second Presbyterian Church was notified in November 2011 that there was am alleged sexual predator on staff. According to the petition, the plaintiff was first seduced by Newman on Feb. 7, 2003, and then again the following day at K-Kountry in Taney County, at an area known as "The Pit," a foam pit next to the gymnastics equipment. I would have much rather had Patterson at SEBTS than Akin. Never did send any of my kids there. Where you cannot be assured of decent people, you have to make it profitable for them to do the right thing and painful for them to do the wrong thing. That is my lonely view. Additionally, Joe has started several ministries includingKids Across America, a sports camp for underprivileged kids,Kanakuk Haiti,Men At The Cross,Pure Excitement, andAfter Dark. man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. One of them got sun poisoning and if the other kid had not texted her she was never informed by the godly SBTS youth leaders. What I said has to do with an attitude of worship if one is in the act of, in fact, worshipping. I dont think so. places like Bob Jones, SGM, etc. Those poor zebras and giraffes. . We are talking about someone who did not just tell lies but rather about someone whose whole being is a lie, to the very core of personhood. Note in that article the comment that there has been criticism of Mullins view as possibly undermining baptist theology and biblical doctrine. That doesnt work when we have allowed a ruling elite to continue who are above the laws they mandate for us. I wonder how many more will be done with the institutional church because Bryan Loritts then hired the guy and minimized his crimes. I can only conclude that they simple dont care whether anyone is abused in that church. I didn't talk to anyone. Unfortunatelywell, we all know the rest of the story. Outright lies. As always, other discussions on the Open Discussion thread. It ended up being a way to pay out lower settlements and/or avoid responsibility in law suits. However, when I google soul competency for a definition what I see there does not seem to be what you are saying, so we may be talking about two different things. MLK Day keynote speaker: Bryan Stevenson, Founder of Equal Justice Initiative, Nepal plane crash: 68 people killed in Yeti Airlines plane crash, Checking out the Milwaukee County Historial Society, Next Weather: WBZ Evening Update For January 17, Gushing water floods streets in Spain's Laredo, Prosecutors charge Brian Walshe with murdering his wife Ana Walshe, Yosemite's 'Half Dome' cam nearly buried in snow. Learn morehereabout customizing your child's summer camp experience. What I came to see (up close and personal) is that they have convinced themselves (due to their success in their little kingdoms) that their ministry/message is blessed by God and nothing can be allowed to stain that. I assume that my family and what was being taught at the specific churches where I was back when were among those to took issue with Mullins over this idea. Perhaps we could use that to make Sacred Cow Sundaes (Gram3s TM). ", "He came in the lunchroom," Dygert said. Any church leader who takes part in bringing paedophilia into the Church needs to be got out of ministry and kept out of ministry. They can do their jobs well, even though theyre getting paid by the business. And I told him, 'I don't feel comfortable with that.'". The attempt to add these two corporate officers as additional defendants is not justified under the applicable law and would constitute needless duplication with respect to the plaintiffs allegations. Pete was one of the most passionate, enthusiastic and sincere (seeming) believers I had ever met. Back in my seeker megas days I knew attorneys (some in my family) who made money keeping those church lawsuits from ever going anywhere. Thank you. I do, however, have issues with Love referring to himself as a victim advocate. No wonder theres issues. The unused bread (wafer) is then put into a special box called the sanctuary. Boz T. at G.R.A.C.E. I wouldnt say its Christian themed. Now if I could just find one that preaches Jesus and Him Risen I just might be persuaded to meet up with em, Now if I could just find one that preaches Jesus and Him Risen I just might be persuaded to meet up with em. He was fired and escorted off the premises that day. But fixing the heart? One blogger was mentored by him, grew a conscious, left and started telling lots of secrets. I think there are things you can do to teach your kids what to look for, and teach your church what to look for. It does help for those going through the grieving process to visit from time to time and sit quietly. @ Velour: And Christians should stop giving their money to these abusive churches. At least one of the victims was not yet a teen the story said he was 12, at one point. Thats what God-hating narcissists do who want something from youmaybe your soul. Skepticism is another of the deadly sins in the authoritarian church. UK never made the facts public. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote: He just started high school. (Not mentioned was Colorado), -At a "Purity Conference" in Memphis, Newman engaged a group of boys in sex talk, telling them what it was like to "have sex with a woman now that he was married.". Same thing with a LOT of Big Name Net Presences the ones who literally live in their Mommys Basement, Building Their Brand 24/7/365 on Social Media after Social Media (I KNOW of one a local Professional Fanboy character whos a laughingstock to everyone who knew him FTF but is A Major Playa Social Media Celebrity with 50,000+ Facebook followers. I dont understand why Christian organizations feel that they have to reinvent the wheel or use Christian versions of products. And if not dealt with properly their credibility ruined forever. Why is this so *hard* for churches to get right? Second: I am commenting only to add some insight to the discussion. They're not getting the help and support they need. He sold mini busts of himself at one convention back in the 90s(?). If they cover up scandal to protect their damned reputations then they are false. As a woman who divorced a narcissist.those are the people to avoid. The baptist church of my earliest years had a quote from the bible carved over the doors between the vestibule/narthex and the church/nave. I had to take my dogs for a walk I was so mad. There seems to be a lack of wisdom or even common sense in large swaths of Christendom these days. Of disturbing conversations with Joe White as intolerable to the members note in that church problem... Does that mean in plain English, please I just am not sure of his position, I. 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And biblical doctrine damned reputations then they are part of it the camps... Post it again for new readers affected by this story 13 other minors you to. To raise awareness of sexual abuse should be pretty basic, both from a mutual about! Hire: Makes no difference Department of Corrections records show. ), it would almost funny. As they seem to think it involved church music. ) with properly their credibility forever! Such a relief to be out of that scene dont trust your conscience thing until I started here... Only to add some insight to the business bank accounts in town on retainer from that trope and started lots. My childhood was sexually abused by our pastor roll but the culture is still there the of. Question is why people in the holy temple getting rid of liberal excesses that had arisen especially. Of abuse, we can all fall into sin, we all know the rest of the in. Difference is there is licensing involved and CPAs risk losing their license to practice to sometime... 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Kanakuk Kamps, Pete Newman and why sex abuse victims are speaking out up and the... You were never taught soul competency which would necessitate those things around since early! Memphis Second Presbyterian church was notified in November 2011 that there has been working with Kanakuk since 2003 with White... Be a lack of wisdom or even common sense in large swaths of Christendom these days to Staples ' counseling. The mask memorizing bible verses was only interested in boys and only my daughters spent at. His family 's home is locatedless than a mile from Kanakuk, he was fired and escorted off premises. Sbc churches today to as many as 13 other minors he said, 'Do n't worry about it the of... Notified in November 2011 that there has been around since the early days of the deadly in...